Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the Americans

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theblackrabbitofinlé
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

Cerdic wrote:
The historians refuted several myths, including the widespread belief that temperatures in the city reached 2,000 degrees in the firestorm — a temperature at which humans turn to ash.

“We were able to prove that wasn’t the case,” said Thomas Wildera of Dresden’s Technical University, a member of the commission. “We disproved the notion that tens of thousands of people disappeared without trace.”

They did so by analysing photos that showed the condition of the brickwork on buildings after the raid. On lower floors, where people were likely to have been sheltering, temperatures rose no higher than 300 to 500, below cremation levels.
http://www.thelocal.de/20150203/dresden ... 3-february
Thomas "Wildera" [recte: Widera] has been quoted in two British newspapers in the past week; saying things that make would make Deborah Lipstadt and similar Dresden minimisers purr with satisfaction:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... llies-past[/quote]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 39671.html


The problem is, for purported Dresden bombing expert Widera and his supporters, is that the man ignores evidence that conflicts with his and his supporters' desired conclusions.

Widera still claims that no more than 25,000 were killed in the "terror attack" (it is referred to as the "Terrorangriff" in a message from the Dresden police chief to the Orpo chief, Berlin on 27.03.45: source: Intercept 132, ZIP/GPD 4082, Traffic 27.03.45 in UK NA HW 16/43), but it's hard to believe that Widera is unaware of the intercepted message David Irving discovered on April 24, 2009, especially considering it was mentioned in an article by Wolfgang Schaarschmidt in Junge Freiheit:
http://jungefreiheit.de/service/archiv/ ... 043050.htm
Back at the Public Record Office I continue to turn the pages of the immense volumes of decoded SS and police messages, released from top secret files only a few years ago. I have now read nearly fifty volumes and I have reached the year 1945. This particular volume has over 2,000 pages of flimsy paper, with ten or fifteen much-abbreviated decoded German messages typed on each page: the contents are madly out of sequence, bound into the volume in the order they were decoded weeks or months after the war.

I methodically read each one, and type a copy of those messages I may need for my Heinrich Himmler biography. Hard sledding, but it is worth it. Their value as a source is immense -- nothing here has been written just for post-war window-dressing (as some 1944 and 1945 documents clearly have been): nobody guessed that we would ever be reading these secret code messages.

AS THE day draws on I come across a document which I only half-suspected I might ever find. [...]

Image
Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.

The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/Irving/RadDi/2009/240409.html

Irving neglected to advise what the archive ref is for this intercept, but I managed to find it last year and can confirm the archival ref is: UK NA: HW 16/43, ZIP/GPD 4073, Traffic 24.03.45, Addendum III, p.3, no.151.

Image

Cerdic wrote:Where's your evidence that Nessie, or indeed me, have denied any known facts about Dresden?
My evidence is above Cerdic, you no doubt deny that over 100,000 people were killed in the bombing of Dresden.
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Nessie
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:.......
Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.

The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/Irving/RadDi/2009/240409.html

...........
Cerdic wrote:Where's your evidence that Nessie, or indeed me, have denied any known facts about Dresden?
My evidence is above Cerdic, you no doubt deny that over 100,000 people were killed in the bombing of Dresden.
The evidence you have presented is that out of 20,000 missing persons cases that have been given out, there were 9,720 fatalities so far out of 80-100,000 notifications. At that rate once 80,000 notifications had been given out the death total would be about 39,000 and out of 100,000 it would be about 48,600.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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been-there
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by been-there »

Five weeks AFTER the wicked and barbarous destruction of an international cultural treasure plus the unecessary and cruel mass-murder by burning to death that went with it, THEN that CODED estimate was conveyed to Dr. Dietrichs. That it was coded means it presumably wasn't for propaganda purposes, probably just the opposite. That it was 5 weeks later seems to have been missed by our Dresden holocaust denying hasbara troll.

It seems highly unlikely to me that many tens of thousands of people of the estimated 80 - 100,000 would miraculously turn up and contact their worried next-of-kin to say "here we are", AFTER FIVE WEEKS.
What do 'Dresden holocaust deniers' think these people were doing for five weeks?
Where do they suppose they had they been?

And then this estimate presumably doesn't take account of the many tens of thousands of refugees who would have no-one to register them as missing. I.e. (for the comprehension challenged) were NEVER EVER registered as "missing".

The other aspect of this is that despite Irving finding all these previously unknown yet irrefutably reliable and authentic contemporary documentary evidence for a figure far greater than 25,000 fatalities, the WHOLE International societal system — from the media, to academia, to the British judicial system, etc., — is not only in denial, but is actively slandering and persecuting the messengers for revealing the truth. :o
Shameful and deeply psychotic societal behaviour. :(
In 1961... I was confidentially approached by a German schoolteacher, Hanns Voigt.
He said that after the horrific British air raid, he was put in charge of Dresden's Missing Persons Bureau, Abteilung Tote - the Deceased Section. He built an immense card index, and he kept a diary; and he estimated for me that the final death toll in Dresden would have reached 135,000. This was the figure that I, and after me Kurt Vonnegut and others, always used.
This estimate was a thorn in the side of both German Governments -- both east and west. They had always played down, even trivialised, the air raid casualty figures caused by the British saturation bombing (even as they hyped the numbers killed in the Jewish tragedy).

In 2008 a German Government commission consisting of, not just conformist but kow-towing, line-toeing, bowing-and-scraping historians and Nickeseln, agreed that the death roll in the man-made 1945 holocaust in Dresden was far lower, "only 25,000" (or, if possible, even less).

Without doing any in-depth research they relied on the police chief's early March 1945 report (which in fact I was the first to find), because it indicated lower figures than Hanns Voigt's for dead and missing.

In the Deborah Lipstadt Trial, her highly-paid chief expert Professor Richard "Skunky" Evans vilified Voigt; he implied that Voigt was a liar, he questioned whether the Missing Persons bureau had ever existed, and he called him a Nazi with an agenda. (Voigt had, we now know, been given a good post-war position in the Soviet Zone before emigrating legally to the West, so the "Nazi" allegation seems unlikely.) Aping Evans, Mr Justice Gray accused me in his 333-page Judgment of falsifying history.

I was not invited to make any submissions to the Dresden Commission. No surprises there. This afternoon, [April 24th, 2009] my quiet patience is rewarded. I have come across this new secret document, signed by the police chief of Dresden, and decoded by the British some weeks after the war.

At 5:55 p.m. on March 24, 1945 the Dresden Polizeipräsident reported in a coded message to SS Oberführer Dr. Dietrichs.

Image
Dresden Polizeipräsident wrote:Re: Missing Persons Situation in Dresden Air Raid Defence region.
The Lord Mayor of Dresden City has established (a) a Central Bureau for Missing Persons and nine Missing Persons registries; (b) eighty- to one-hundred thousand missing-person notifications are estimated to have been registered so far; (c) 9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities; (d) to date, information on twenty thousand missing person cases has been given out; (e) accurate statistical data possibly only later.
So Voigt was telling the truth.

Even the "hundred thousand" figure for those reported missing must be an under-estimate. There were over half a million homeless refugees in the streets of Dresden, fleeing the Red Army siege of Breslau to the East. Whole refugee families must have been engulfed by the Dresden holocaust, with nobody surviving to report them as "missing".

Another thing seems brutally clear: those listed as "missing" -- in addition to those bodies formally identified and buried or incinerated by this date -- were never going to return. To use the words of the telegram I found yesterday (see above) they were dead, "carbonised," and unidentifiable.

What do these decoded messages tell us about our own lazy and conformist historians, and about "Skunky" Evans in particular? He, and they, would never have found them. It has taken me these many years. Go the extra mile. Eventually... "You will be proved right in the end".
Last edited by been-there on Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

Nessie wrote:The evidence you have presented is that out of 20,000 missing persons cases that have been given out, there were 9,720 fatalities so far out of 80-100,000 notifications. At that rate once 80,000 notifications had been given out the death total would be about 39,000 and out of 100,000 it would be about 48,600.
Why do think there's would be a link between the figure of "information" on missing people cases given out (20,000), and the number of confirmed fatalities (9,720) amongst those registered as missing? This message was intercept on March 24, five and a half weeks after the attack began, identifying remains was something that would have been getting progressively harder due to decomposition

But regardless, it's good that you recognise that at least half of those reported as missing were killed—which would mean you must believe the official death toll pronounced by the Dresden commission recently (18,000-25,000) is too low by approximately half.

What proportion, might you guess, of the fatalities of the Dresden bombing did not have a family member or close friend to report them as missing, because they too were killed in the fire-storm?
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

The message on the total number of deaths so far is 9720 was on the 27th March 1945. The raids had ended on the 15th February, nearly 6 weeks earlier.

From the Wiki entry on Dresden a Tagesbefehl (Order of the Day) no. 47 ("TB47") from the 22nd March had the number of dead at 20,204. A report on the 3rd of April had the dead at 22,096 and on the 30th of April at least 21,895. Another 1,858 bodies were recovered between then and 1966.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Nessie wrote:The evidence you have presented is that out of 20,000 missing persons cases that have been given out, there were 9,720 fatalities so far out of 80-100,000 notifications. At that rate once 80,000 notifications had been given out the death total would be about 39,000 and out of 100,000 it would be about 48,600.
Why do think there's would be a link between the figure of "information" on missing people cases given out (20,000), and the number of confirmed fatalities (9,720) amongst those registered as missing? This message was intercept on March 24, five and a half weeks after the attack began, identifying remains was something that would have been getting progressively harder due to decomposition.
That was me wondering how denier/revisionists could falsely use the 9,720 fatalities to get to 80-100,000 fatalities.
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:But regardless, it's good that you recognise that at least half of those reported as missing were killed—which would mean you must believe the official death toll pronounced by the Dresden commission recently (18,000-25,000) is too low by approximately half.
No. The various counts of corpses do not get to that number.
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:What proportion, might you guess, of the fatalities of the Dresden bombing did not have a family member or close friend to report them as missing, because they too were killed in the fire-storm?
No idea. In any case there was no attempt to hide remains and records were made of corpse counts and they were kept for later research. So an entire family killed would be part of the corpse counts.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

been-there wrote:Five weeks AFTER the wicked and barbarous destruction of an international cultural treasure plus the unecessary and cruel mass-murder by burning to death that went with it, THEN that CODED estimate was conveyed to Dr. Dietrichs. That it was coded means it presumably wasn't for propaganda purposes, probably just the opposite. That it was 5 weeks later seems to have been missed by our Dresden holocaust denying hasbara troll.

It seems highly unlikely to me that many tens of thousands of people of the estimated 80 - 100,000 would miraculously turn up and contact their worried next-of-kin to say "here we are", AFTER FIVE WEEKS.
What do 'Dresden holocaust deniers' think these people were doing for five weeks?
Where do they suppose they had they been?

And then this estimate presumably doesn't take account of the many tens of thousands of refugees who would have no-one to register them as missing. I.e. (for the comprehension challenged) were NEVER EVER registered as "missing".

The other aspect of this is that despite Irving finding all these previously unknown yet irrefutably reliable and authentic contemporary documentary evidence for a figure far greater than 25,000 fatalities, the WHOLE International societal system — from the media, to academia, to the British judicial system, etc., — is not only in denial, but is actively slandering and persecuting the messengers for revealing the truth. :o
Shameful and deeply psychotic societal behaviour. :(
A legitimate comparison can be made to another German police message deciphered in Hut 6 at Bletchley Park and now found in the same category (HW 16) of files at Kew: the so-called Höfle Telegram. Since it's discovery in 2000, it has been mentioned in virtually every single serious study and countless newspaper articles about the Holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram

Whereas the intercept Irving found about the numbers reported missing in Dresden is being deliberately ignored by supposed Dresden bombing specialists, i.a. Thomas Widera, because in one fell swoop it topples their carefully constructed Dresden holocaust minimising.
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:........
A legitimate comparison can be made to another German police message deciphered in Hut 6 at Bletchley Park and now found in the same category (HW 16) of files at Kew: the so-called Höfle Telegram. Since it's discovery in 2000, it has been mentioned in virtually every single serious study and countless newspaper articles about the Holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram

Whereas the intercept Irving found about the numbers reported missing in Dresden is being deliberately ignored by supposed Dresden bombing specialists, i.a. Thomas Widera, because in one fell swoop it topples their carefully constructed Dresden holocaust minimising.
Since the dead at Dresden were being recorded, various records were kept and many were buried in marked graves we have a much better idea of the number of dead than when the Nazis wanted to hide that number.

The message estimates the number of registrations of missing persons and points out that accurate data will come later. Which do you think is going to be most accurate in the long term? An estimate of missing person registrations or number of bodies found?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

Nessie wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Nessie wrote:The evidence you have presented is that out of 20,000 missing persons cases that have been given out, there were 9,720 fatalities so far out of 80-100,000 notifications. At that rate once 80,000 notifications had been given out the death total would be about 39,000 and out of 100,000 it would be about 48,600.
Why do think there's would be a link between the figure of "information" on missing people cases given out (20,000), and the number of confirmed fatalities (9,720) amongst those registered as missing? This message was intercept on March 24, five and a half weeks after the attack began, identifying remains was something that would have been getting progressively harder due to decomposition.
That was me wondering how denier/revisionists could falsely use the 9,720 fatalities to get to 80-100,000 fatalities.
A. So it was just bullshit then

B. The message said 9,720 of the 80-100K reported missing had been confirmed as fatalities, meaning their remains had been identified or such. Only an imbicle or liar would assert that the report states there were just 9,720 fatalities.

C. What evidence do you have that the still-missing on 24th March—almost six weeks after the bombing began, 70,280—90,280 later turned up alive and well?

Nessie wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:But regardless, it's good that you recognise that at least half of those reported as missing were killed—which would mean you must believe the official death toll pronounced by the Dresden commission recently (18,000-25,000) is too low by approximately half.
No. The various counts of corpses do not get to that number.
Counting corpses is not usually recognised as a legitimate method of arriving at deaths tolls during WWII, strange that Dresden should be an exception. No doubt the corpse count details you've *studied* were provided by the same commission whose members are still pretending the intercepted message in question does not exist.
Nessie wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:What proportion, might you guess, of the fatalities of the Dresden bombing did not have a family member or close friend to report them as missing, because they too were killed in the fire-storm?
No idea. In any case there was no attempt to hide remains and records were made of corpse counts and they were kept for later research. So an entire family killed would be part of the corpse counts.
Who made these corpses counts?
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Nessie wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Nessie wrote:The evidence you have presented is that out of 20,000 missing persons cases that have been given out, there were 9,720 fatalities so far out of 80-100,000 notifications. At that rate once 80,000 notifications had been given out the death total would be about 39,000 and out of 100,000 it would be about 48,600.
Why do think there's would be a link between the figure of "information" on missing people cases given out (20,000), and the number of confirmed fatalities (9,720) amongst those registered as missing? This message was intercept on March 24, five and a half weeks after the attack began, identifying remains was something that would have been getting progressively harder due to decomposition.
That was me wondering how denier/revisionists could falsely use the 9,720 fatalities to get to 80-100,000 fatalities.
A. So it was just bullshit then

B. The message said 9,720 of the 80-100K reported missing had been confirmed as fatalities, meaning their remains had been identified or such. Only an imbicle or liar would assert that the report states there were just 9,720 fatalities.

C. What evidence do you have that the still-missing on 24th March—almost six weeks after the bombing began, 70,280—90,280 later turned up alive and well?
A - yes
B - the report states "9,720 missing-person notifications have been confirmed as fatalities". It does not have a number for the unidentified bodies.
C - none. What evidence do you have they all died?
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Nessie wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:But regardless, it's good that you recognise that at least half of those reported as missing were killed—which would mean you must believe the official death toll pronounced by the Dresden commission recently (18,000-25,000) is too low by approximately half.
No. The various counts of corpses do not get to that number.
Counting corpses is not usually recognised as a legitimate method of arriving at deaths tolls during WWII, strange that Dresden should be an exception. No doubt the corpse count details you've *studied* were provided by the same commission whose members are still pretending the intercepted message in question does not exist.
Where it is possible, counting corpses is the most accurate way of determining the number of dead. Where is your evidence Dresden was an exception? I showed you the source of the figures I presented.

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Nessie wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:What proportion, might you guess, of the fatalities of the Dresden bombing did not have a family member or close friend to report them as missing, because they too were killed in the fire-storm?
No idea. In any case there was no attempt to hide remains and records were made of corpse counts and they were kept for later research. So an entire family killed would be part of the corpse counts.
Who made these corpses counts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of ... Casualties

Go into the sources and you will find they were originally from the Hohere SS and Polizeifuhrer and other authorities in Dresden such as those responsible for the cemeteries.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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