Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in between

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Nessie
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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Conspiracy and theory have different meanings from the two together as conspiracy theory.
No shit. It's almost like I said we had to use our brains to figure out what 'conspiracy theory' means by putting together the FIRST PREFERENCE, ACADEMIC DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS of those two words.
The whole ad hominem of, "you're just a conspiracy theorist" is meaningless because legally speaking, all you need for a conspiracy is two or more people to plot something and carry it out. Hence, gas chamber mongers are conspiracy theorists, just about nazis. Everybody is a conspiracy theorist - just regarding different groups of people.

Werd Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:03 pm
https://www.rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic. ... 216#p55216
Also,
conspiracy
[kuh n-spir-uh-see]

Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin

noun, plural conspiracies.
1.
the act of conspiring.
2.
an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.

Werd Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:46 pm
https://www.rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic. ... 502#p56502
But also, I forgot this...
[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]

Examples
Word Origin

noun, plural theories.
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena:
Einstein's theory of relativity.
In other words, people who think Muslims did 9-11 or beheaded Steven Sotloff, James Foley and Alan Henning in those videos are conspiracy theorists. I guess that would be you, Nessie.
The latter is now a loaded term with connotations of nut ideas and paranoia.
And loaded terms with the truth or falsity of a proposition built into them are what? Fallacious. If I were to call you paranoid and racist for thinking Muslims did 9-11, you would have the epistemic right to tell me that is wrong. "Paranoid" is another insult. Another buzz word that has no place in a serious discussion. Furthermore, the fact that 'conspiracy theory' is a loaded term is meaningless. That's not my problem, you idiot. Therefore attacking evidence based theories soley with a mere linguistic trick (the falsity built into the definition - question begging therefore) does not work.

Nessie is trying to use loaded terms to 'prove' every conspiracy he doesn't believe in, as false. It is not only fallacious, but it is clearly repetitive of him. He ignores things on purpose. That makes him a

Image
I pointed out that conspiracy theory now has a negative connotation. You have then gone off a major strawman creation exercise and returned to your misuse of the word troll.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.


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Nessie
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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Nessie »

corrections wrote:
Nessie wrote:
corrections wrote:.......

Conclusion: "Conspiracy theory" is a loaded term which has no real place in an intelligent debate about the Holocaust.
Conclusion, if people come out with the idea that the Holocaust is a Zionist plan which made up the gas chambers, millions dead and Nazi plan to exterminate to extract money from Germany and any company involved in the ethnic cleansing of Jews, they are arguing for a conspiracy theory and have to accept the baggage which comes with such.
Either you believe or don't believe that taking advantage of humans' weakness to social pressure to mold opinions is acceptable behavior. I oppose such psych tricks and always will, period.
I oppose it as well. I suspect we disagree on what is a "psych trick".
corrections wrote:Not to mention that this "Holocaust is a Zionist plan" crap is a complete straw man which none of the fringiest posters here even would agree with.
Google Zionist holocaust conspiracy and you will see that there are many claims of such. Have a search of this forum's threads and see what others have said about Zionism and its use of the Holocaust.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by corrections »

Nessie wrote:
corrections wrote:
Nessie wrote:
corrections wrote:.......

Conclusion: "Conspiracy theory" is a loaded term which has no real place in an intelligent debate about the Holocaust.
Conclusion, if people come out with the idea that the Holocaust is a Zionist plan which made up the gas chambers, millions dead and Nazi plan to exterminate to extract money from Germany and any company involved in the ethnic cleansing of Jews, they are arguing for a conspiracy theory and have to accept the baggage which comes with such.
Either you believe or don't believe that taking advantage of humans' weakness to social pressure to mold opinions is acceptable behavior. I oppose such psych tricks and always will, period.
I oppose it as well. I suspect we disagree on what is a "psych trick".
corrections wrote:Not to mention that this "Holocaust is a Zionist plan" crap is a complete straw man which none of the fringiest posters here even would agree with.
Google Zionist holocaust conspiracy and you will see that there are many claims of such. Have a search of this forum's threads and see what others have said about Zionism and its use of the Holocaust.
Google the difference between "Holocaust is a Zionist plan" and "Zionism uses the Holocaust". The latter is a cold hard fact.

Graf explains it very eloquently starting in page 37 of The "Extermination Camps" of "Akton Reinhardt" http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar.pdf

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Werd »

corrections wrote:
Nessie wrote:
corrections wrote:.......

Conclusion: "Conspiracy theory" is a loaded term which has no real place in an intelligent debate about the Holocaust.
Conclusion, if people come out with the idea that the Holocaust is a Zionist plan which made up the gas chambers, millions dead and Nazi plan to exterminate to extract money from Germany and any company involved in the ethnic cleansing of Jews, they are arguing for a conspiracy theory and have to accept the baggage which comes with such.
Either you believe or don't believe that taking advantage of humans' weakness to social pressure to mold opinions is acceptable behavior. I oppose such psych tricks and always will, period.

Not to mention that this "Holocaust is a Zionist plan" crap is a complete straw man which none of the fringiest posters here even would agree with.
Mattogno, Graf and Kues blame the Poles, the Soviets and the British. Same with Eric Hunt and denierbud.
Last edited by Werd on Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Werd »

Nessie
Google Zionist holocaust conspiracy and you will see that there are many claims of such. Have a search of this forum's threads and see what others have said about Zionism and its use of the Holocaust.
corrections
Google the difference between "Holocaust is a Zionist plan" and "Zionism uses the Holocaust". The latter is a cold hard fact.

Graf explains it very eloquently starting in page 37 of The "Extermination Camps" of "Akton Reinhardt" http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar.pdf
Page 38 in the pdf to be exact. 37 in the hardback copy.
I pointed out that conspiracy theory now has a negative connotation.
Again, that is because people are using incorrect definitions of those words. They are not using the academic first preference definitions of 'conspiracy' and 'theory.' THOSE ARE THE CORRECT ONES and I have already explained this to you here. So since no revisionist on here refuses to accept those academic first preference definitions of 'conspiracy' and 'theory' you can stop wasting time with faulty definitions that nobody holds to; quit beating this dead horse.
Remember your own words?
For many including me a conspiracy theory is something that is false and by it nature cannot be true. If it turns out to be true it is no longer a conspiracy theory.

Nessie Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:07 am
So you use an incorrect definition of 'conspiracy' and 'theory' to arrive at an incorrect view of what properly constitutes a conspiracy theory. I later corrected you and told you to use the English language properly.
This is a bastardized street defintion without first preference definitions of 'conspiracy' and 'theory' as illustrated in legal as well as regular dictionaries.

Werd Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:46 pm
Your next tactic was to IGNORE AND DISREGARD the academic, first preference definitions as accepted by lawyers and academics.
Sorry, but to associate yourself with conspiracy theories is not a good idea if you want to keep any credibility.

Nessie Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:10 pm
And also,
Conspiracy and theory have different meanings from the two together as conspiracy theory. The latter is now a loaded term with connotations of nut ideas and paranoia.

Nessie Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:43 pm
Which ONCE AGAIN dodges the first preference academic definitions in academic and legal dictionaries. STOP TRYING TO FORCE INCORRECT SEMANTICS ON US REVISIONISTS as already explained here.

Werd Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:04 am
https://www.rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic. ... 630#p56630
conspiracy
[kuh n-spir-uh-see]

1.
the act of conspiring.
2.
an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
Plus,
theory
[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]

1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena
Put together we have,

a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons

Oh my god that was so hard...putting two and two together. :lol: Therefore, as I said, "people who think Muslims did 9-11 or beheaded Steven Sotloff, James Foley and Alan Henning in those videos are conspiracy theorists. I guess that would be you, Nessie."

Of course finally, after being exposed on your incorrect understanding of the phrase 'conspiracy theory' dated from your post Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:07 am, you have now shifted the goalposts and now say that you were just pointing out the negative connotations others have attached.
I pointed out that conspiracy theory now has a negative connotation. You have then gone off a major strawman creation exercise and returned to your misuse of the word troll.

Nessie Jan 06, 2015 8:56 pm
Actually Nessie, it is clear you are trying to cover your own ass after I showed how the proper defintitions of 'conspiracy' and 'theory' will yield a correct understanding went against your poor understanding of "conspiracy theory."

Are you done now, with your incorrect definitions Nessie? Can we move on, or do you still feel the need to beat this dead horse?

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:.....
Actually Nessie, it is clear you are trying to cover your own ass after I showed how the proper defintitions of 'conspiracy' and 'theory' will yield a correct understanding went against your poor understanding of "conspiracy theory."

......
My understanding of conspiracy theory;

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... acy+theory

"conspiracy theory
noun
1. a theory that explains an event as being the result of a plot by a covert group or organization; a belief that a particular unexplained event was caused by such a group.
2. the idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... y%20theory

"conspiracy theory
noun
: a theory that explains an event or situation as the result of a secret plan by usually powerful people or groups
: a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators"


http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... acy-theory

"conspiracy theory
Line breaks: con¦spir|acy the¦ory
Definition of conspiracy theory in English:
noun
A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event: they sought to account for the attacks in terms of a conspiracy theory"
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Werd wrote:.....
Actually Nessie, it is clear you are trying to cover your own ass after I showed how the proper defintitions of 'conspiracy' and 'theory' will yield a correct understanding went against your poor understanding of "conspiracy theory."

......
My understanding of conspiracy theory;

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... acy+theory

"conspiracy theory
noun
1. a theory that explains an event as being the result of a plot by a covert group or organization; a belief that a particular unexplained event was caused by such a group.
2. the idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... y%20theory

"conspiracy theory
noun
: a theory that explains an event or situation as the result of a secret plan by usually powerful people or groups
: a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators"


http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... acy-theory

"conspiracy theory
Line breaks: con¦spir|acy the¦ory
Definition of conspiracy theory in English:
noun
A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event: they sought to account for the attacks in terms of a conspiracy theory"
Okay.

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Balsamo »

Jung Test Results



Extroverted (E) 61% Introverted (I) 39%
Intuitive (N) 87% Sensing (S) 13%
Thinking (T) 52% Feeling (F) 48%
Perceiving (P) 90% Judging (J) 10%



Your type is: ENTP




ENTP - "Inventor". Enthusiastic interest in everything and always sensitive to possibilities. Non-conformist and innovative. 3.2% of the total population

That is for Scott. ;)

I have a question for Nessie:

If one admit the whole "conspirationist theory", what would be the opposite (the contrary) of a conspirationist?

Just to take this definition:
conspiracy theory
noun
1. a theory that explains an event as being the result of a plot by a covert group or organization; a belief that a particular unexplained event was caused by such a group.
2. the idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public."
Should we understand that no event is or was the result of a plot or a covert group or organization?

Should one then belief that most of the important political or economic events or trends are the product of policies that are largely known and shared to the general public by institutions like governments or international institutions? That there are no secrecies at all?

So how should we call someone who blindly believe Fox news explaining events as in definition 1 or who trust what governments do and say whatever they do or say, who believe that the trends and evolution of society are just the way it has to be logically, without any interference whatsoever (definition2)?

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Nessie »

Balsamo wrote:......
I have a question for Nessie:

If one admit the whole "conspirationist theory", what would be the opposite (the contrary) of a conspirationist?

Just to take this definition:
conspiracy theory
noun
1. a theory that explains an event as being the result of a plot by a covert group or organization; a belief that a particular unexplained event was caused by such a group.
2. the idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public."
Sceptic?
Should we understand that no event is or was the result of a plot or a covert group or organization?
No. For example, Guy Fawkes and Watergate.
Should one then belief that most of the important political or economic events or trends are the product of policies that are largely known and shared to the general public by institutions like governments or international institutions?
That depends on the country and how much control the government has.
That there are no secrecies at all?
There are tons of secrecies when it comes to governments, the churches, business, interest groups, the people.
So how should we call someone who blindly believe Fox news explaining events as in definition 1 or who trust what governments do and say whatever they do or say, who believe that the trends and evolution of society are just the way it has to be logically, without any interference whatsoever (definition2)?
Both are closed minded.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Psychology of believers / deniers / revisionists in betw

Post by Balsamo »

Nessie:
Sceptic?


Nope, I mean the contrary of a conspirtionist...the opposite... A sceptic is someone who would be open to listen to some weird theory - while the term I am looking for would apply for someone who just will wash away any alternative at what the news says.
No. For example, Guy Fawkes and Watergate.
Let's leave the 17th century aside.

I would say the list is much longer than that, anyway let's imagine that Woodword and Bernstein would not have been able to substantiate their allegation or did not have the supports and courage to persue, that the Nixxon administration would have succeeded in neutralizing the so called "big throat" and to ridiculing him, then would they all had been considered as conspirationists?
What is the fundamental difference between those two journalists and those today who has suspiscion, logic, but no determinant proofs? What would be the conceptual distinction?
That depends on the country and how much control the government has.
Conceptually, it does not work. Even in a country with a so-called weak power, there is or are strong powers, and as any powers - whether States or private corporations, their action is always guided by their perceived interests. That is - I dare to say - the consensual paradigm in international politics.
There are tons of secrecies when it comes to governments, the churches, business, interest groups, the people.
Indeed, but still the ones who are trying to investigate those secrecies still falls under the "conspirationist lunatic" libel? Or am I wrong?
Both are closed minded.
So if I understand you right, those who blindly believe Fox news explaining events as in definition 1 or who trust what governments do and say whatever they do or say, who believe that the trends and evolution of society are just the way it has to be logically, without any interference whatsoever (definition2)? are closed minded?

Should I conclude that the contrary of a conspirationist is "closed minded"?

So what do you think is healthier for any society? scpetics/conspirationsits or "closed minded"?
I asked this because most of the recent conceptualization attempts on this issue only tend to target the first ones, leaving the second group alone - qualifying them as "normal".

Nothing is clear, despite some researchers like to pretending to be.
Just to take one example, the numbers here are fantasies, but the proportion are more or less exact.
In the USA, 75% of the population believe that JFK was shot by Oswald alone.
In Europe, and I assume in most of the world, 75% believe that Kennedy could not have been killed by a sole shooter?

Again, who is conspirationist and who is closed minded? how do we conceptualize that?

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